Wednesday, December 3, 2014
god's power, free will, & sin
During Tuesday's class, we came to the decision that God gives free will to people, and that their decision making is the test. In the story about Lucretia in Book I, Chapter 19, God tested her. She was raped and later committed suicide. In Chapter 28, Saint Augustine defends the idea that there is no excuse for resorting to this end, as we are all created in God's image and that from conception, our life is a gift, etc. "They believe that He would by no means abandon those who have served Him and invoked His aid so faithfully," Augustine writes. He expands on this idea by saying that God wouldn't permit the evils if they could destroy the "purity of soul" which he bestows on his saints. However, if God gives free will to man as a test, and someone sins which leads another person to sin, then is God truly acting in accordance with the idea that he wouldn't permit evils that destroy people? We concluded that God is responsible for everything; why then, would he (for instance) drive someone to suicide, or create a world in which free will could lead to so much sin?
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I think Augustine tries to explain this question in book 14, chapter 27 when he says, "God's further purpose was to reveal to all rational creatures, angelic and human, in the light of their own experience, the difference between the fruits of presumption, angelic or human, and the protection of God." Even though God is responsible for everything, he gives us free will so we can have our own experiences. Chapter 27 continues and says that God preferred not to use His power, and left success or failure up to the creator's choice. He does this to show the evil that comes from the pride of humans as well as good that comes from His grace. I think we struggle to understand the purpose of free will since everything is predetermined by God. However, I don't think it is the final decision that is important, rather the experience and what we learn from it. It is the journey to success or failure that matters the most.
ReplyDeleteI think that God allows sin in the world to create imbalance. Without the punishment that sinners receive, people would not be inclined to believe in God and would not abide by his words. Also, if one person decides to sin and influences another to do the same, it becomes up to the second person to decide whether to sin or not. Their free will decides what the consequences of their actions will be. I agree with Raffaella in that the sins or actions taken by others serve as lessons for the people. Even if one does not commit an act oneself, they can learn from the consequences of others, and ultimately decide themselves whether to take a similar action or not. I do not believe that God is acting in accordance with the idea that he would not permit evils that destroy people, as murder is a sin which literally destroys a person's life, as well as the loved ones of that person.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea that God allows sin, and therefore created it i suppose, to create imbalance makes sense. I think my issue is with the fact that free will isn't really free because Augustine explains that the experiences people have result in showing them their purpose. However, in accordance wit his other ideas, I feel like it makes sense to say that God knows of the decisions people will make, and lets them occur so that a larger idea is shown/purpose is fulfilled.
DeleteI just disagree with the fact the God gives us free will and the decision is the test. I disagree because we said in class that God watches over everything we do because everything we do is part of his plan. If something is planned and everything goes as planned then how is there any freedom involved. On the other hand, if we do have free will then we are believing in evil because people can choose to go for the evil.
ReplyDeleteI think that God doesn't even give us free will because he does not exist. I think that people initially have free will and if it so happens that they, using their free will, decide to believe in God, then they are trapped. When they choose to believe in God they give up all of their free will, they now have to obey what he says in The Bible, a book that even when I went to a Jesuit high school I had priests telling me it was not real. So how could he possibly give us free will if he does not exist.
ReplyDeleteOn a personal level, I would agree with this idea. The problem, however, is that spreading an atheist view and wholeheartedly proving it / having people follow through with it is extremely difficult. Though I don't really agree with Augustine's points, his work is a justification of Christianity and a belief in God, something that is so large and widespread, that many of his ideas would be accepted. I guess because of that, we have to look at City of God and the Bible and remove ourselves from the equation when we try to understand Augustine's points and justifications for things that happen in the world
DeleteI agree with Melissa that God gives no free will. We discussed that fate is always predetermined and that God simply watches over humanity already knowing what is going to happen and when. In that case people simply believe that they have free will and therefore "make decisions" based on the free will they believe in, but these decisions have already been decided by God before humans even knew about the situation. That would make it seem that evil is something that God decides, and he is the one who decides who will be evil and make evil decisions. God also would have the power to make these "evil" people make good decisions, because free will seems like just an illusion that people have.
ReplyDeleteIf we assume that God gave us free will and he watches over us, how can we speculate his power in letting us make our own decisions? We say he is an all powerful figure who gave us the ability to make our own decisions. However, how do we know he was not simply deceiving us into thinking we actually have free will and just creating an illusion? Our experiences are subjective, therefore I wonder where do we draw the line on his powers?
ReplyDeleteI think you question reveals the existentially-angsty side of Christianity, brought out best by Kierkegaard's writings. Belief in God and the divine is fundamentally irrational, and believers must simply accept that. The absurdity of the decision is revealed by the sheer suffering and misery that pervades human societies. Yet this is not a reason to automatically hate on Christians. From a certain perspective, the choice of religious faith seems pretty incredible and even miraculous. By refusing to accept the bleakness of the world around them, and striving for the impossible perfection which lies outside the sinful world, the pious have made an inconceivable decision, totally irrational, which is nonetheless wholly admirable in the eyes of many. There is a certain strength in such faith. Atheists like myself, particularly bitter atheists, might say this is nothing more than willful ignorance and narrow-mindedness, but I would argue the same could ultimately be said about most creeds, dogmas, and belief systems. When religious fanatics start whining about science, however, that's a whole other sorry.
ReplyDeleteI believe that God simply gives the option or choosing a right & wrong decision for everyone because he wants to make them believe that they make their own choice. Although he knows what will happen, because he is responsible for everything, it therefore creates the illusion that each person is responsible for their own actions & should still be held accountable to them.
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